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Stop People from Stealing Your Stuff

Stop People from Stealing Your Stuff

Stopping the Idea Thief: 5 Secrets the Pros Use to Protect Intellectual Property
Video Hour 1: High-level overview and Trademarks

AutoHotkey Webinar 05/2019 Hour 1-Protecting your IP: Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents, Trade Secrets

AutoHotkey Webinar 05/2019 Hour 1-Protecting your IP: Trademarks, Copyrights, Patents, Trade Secrets

The key idea of the video is that protecting intellectual property, including trademarks and copyrights, is crucial and requires proper registration and legal guidance to avoid costly mistakes and loss of rights.

  • 00:00 📚 The speaker discusses an upcoming webinar on protecting intellectual property, where participants can ask questions about patents, trademarks, copyrights, and related topics, and recommends a book called “Automation Services: The Future of Work” as a resource.
    • The speaker discusses the upcoming autohotkey webinar, where IP lawyer Stephen Thrasher will provide an overview of patents, trademarks, copyrights, and related topics, with the opportunity for participants to ask questions during specific sections.
    • During the webinar, participants were asked to use the chat function to ask questions and request to be unmuted, as there were many attendees and it was difficult to have multiple people speaking at once.
    • The speaker recommends a book called “Automation Services: The Future of Work” by Mary Lassithi and Leslie Wilcox, which covers a wide range of topics related to using AutoHotkey in a business setting.
    • The speaker recommends listening to the podcast and reviewing the PDF slides as an alternative to buying the book to get an idea if it is interesting and worth exploring.
  • 03:31 📝 The speaker discusses a script highlight and demonstrates a powerful script for renaming files, while also mentioning a program with extensive functionality available for a price.
    • The speaker discusses a script highlight that he has been using for years, but was unable to share the source code until someone fixed it, and explains its usefulness.
    • The speaker demonstrates how to use a powerful script to rename files on your computer by typing and previewing the changes before applying them.
    • The speaker provides a link to a program with extensive functionality and mentions that the updated version is available, along with additional documentation, for a price.
  • 07:23 📝 The presentation emphasizes the importance of registering intellectual property (trademarks, copyrights, patents, trade secrets) and highlights the consequences of not doing so, while also recommending a lawyer who offers a free initial consultation and utilizes technology effectively for his business.
    • The speaker recommends a lawyer who is knowledgeable about intellectual property, offers a free initial consultation, and effectively utilizes technology for his business.
    • The presentation discusses the importance of registering intellectual property, specifically trademarks, copyrights, patents, and trade secrets, and highlights the common mistake of waiting until a problem arises to seek registration.
    • Competitors are redirecting business through trademark infringement, but without a registered trademark, it will take months to enforce it, and waiting more than a year with a patent results in losing it completely.
    • The presentation discusses four different types of intellectual property (trademarks, copyrights, patents, trade secrets) and encourages participants to ask questions about each type during the corresponding section.
    • Attorneys typically focus on worst-case scenarios and advise clients to spend as much money as possible to prevent negative outcomes, but this presentation takes a different approach.
  • 12:28 🔒 Protecting your intellectual property is important, and understanding trademarks is key to preventing confusion and protecting consumers.
    • The speaker emphasizes the importance of value over best practices in protecting intellectual property, drawing from their experience in various businesses.
    • Know what intellectual property you own by conducting a search for patents and trademarks, as copyright and trade secrets cannot be searched, and keep in mind the two big questions within the world of intellectual property.
    • Can I use a name for my product or company without being sued for trademark infringement, and can I protect my idea through patents, trademarks, copyrights, or trade secrets?
    • Trademarks are names, slogans, and logos used to identify the source of a good or service, and their purpose is to prevent consumer confusion and protect consumers, not to reward business owners for coming up with a cool name.
    • Trademarks exist to prevent confusion and become powerful through a big advertising budget, unlike patents and copyrights which reward inventors and artists.
    • Trademarking slogans and phrases is possible as long as consumers associate them with your business or product, and it is best to file for a trademark as soon as you start using it.
  • 19:50 📝 File a trademark application to reserve the right to use your program name and prevent others from registering it, as trademarks protect consumer rights and originated from a time when people were illiterate.
    • File a trademark application as soon as you start using it to reserve the right to use it and prevent others from registering it, and the trademark lasts as long as you use it and renew the registration properly.
    • Program names are protected by copyright, while catchphrases and slogans are protected by trademarks.
    • Trademark protection is not for the benefit of the creator, but rather for consumer rights and originated from a time when people were illiterate.
    • People used pictures to remember things, and the speaker discusses the importance of logos and icons in relation to screen sharing.
  • 24:55 📝 Trademark protection is important for establishing authority and power in a courtroom, with costs starting at $995 for registration, while copyright was briefly mentioned.
    • During a webinar, the speaker’s internet went out, but they were able to continue by using their neighbor’s internet, despite not being able to create a hotspot with their unlimited data plan.
    • The difference between a TM and an R M is that a TM is a way of claiming rights to a name, logo, or slogan without stating it’s a registered trademark, while an R M indicates that the mark is registered by the federal trademark office.
    • Trademark protection is important for establishing authority and power in a courtroom, and the cost of registering a trademark can vary depending on the specific case.
    • Evaluate, prepare, file, and enforce trademarks, with costs starting at $995 for a full search and registration on a word mark.
    • Names can be categorized into different industries and classes for trademark protection, with famous marks requiring a court declaration, while trade marking only protects the name itself.
    • The speaker discusses copyright and mentions a question from Ryan about sharing a deck.
  • 32:04 📝 When acknowledging trademarks on a website, include them in the legal section; copyrights protect artistic expression, including software; derivatives of images are owned by the original owner unless permission is given.
    • When acknowledging multiple trademarks on a website, it is recommended to include them in the legal section along with privacy policies, terms of service, and registration numbers, without emphasizing patents, and it is the responsibility of others to research and determine if they can use similar names in different countries.
    • The speaker discusses copyright and their plan to type the q and a’s and insert them as slides at the end of each section.
    • Copyrights protect artistic expression, including software, three-dimensional objects, photos, videos, and music.
    • Derivatives of images are owned by the original owner, unless the person who derived it had permission, and copyright protection depends on the level of creativity in the changes made.
  • 36:54 🔒 Filing for copyright protection within three months of publication is advantageous, providing benefits such as presumption of attorneys fees and statutory damages, but it is important to seek professional guidance to avoid costly mistakes and loss of rights.
    • Copyright material is based on the date of publication, and it is advantageous to file for copyright protection within the first three months, unlike patents where you have a year to file.
    • Filing for copyright within three months of publication provides advantages such as a presumption of attorneys fees and statutory damages, making it an underutilized but valuable form of intellectual property protection.
    • Copyrights last your lifetime plus 70 years or 100 years for corporations, but Disney has lobbied for changes in copyright law every 25 years, extending the duration of copyrights, and filing for copyrights should be done at the US Copyright Office.
    • Acting quickly and correctly when protecting your intellectual property is crucial, as attempting to do it on your own can lead to mistakes that may result in significant consequences and the loss of rights.
    • Trying to protect your intellectual property without professional guidance can lead to costly mistakes, as seen in the example of someone losing out on millions of dollars due to not properly maintaining their patent.
    • Doing your own intellectual property application may seem easy, but it can be easily messed up and misunderstood by the government due to its nuanced and confusing nature.

Video Hour 2: Copyrights, Patents and Trade Secrets plus additional tips

The key idea of the video is that it is crucial for businesses to protect their intellectual property through measures such as monitoring patent law changes, maintaining trade secrets, strategically protecting valuable programs, utilizing license agreements, considering government assistance limitations, customizing non-disclosure agreements, and avoiding mistakes to prevent loss of value.

  • 00:00 🔒 The patent system is constantly changing and can be unpredictable, with China being seen as a better option for patent protection, which is concerning.
    • There are two types of patents, design patents which protect the appearance of a product, and utility patents which protect the functionality and process of a product, with utility patents being more commonly discussed.
    • Software, weapons, musical instruments, and games are all examples of things that can be patented, and the United States operates under a first-to-file system for patents.
    • Whoever files a patent application first at the Patent Office gets the patent, so companies now often send weekly or biweekly bundles of innovations as provisional patent applications to secure their rights.
    • It takes about two weeks to do a patent search, four to six weeks to prepare and file a patent application, and between 9 months and 18 months for examination, with some applications taking longer depending on the technology.
    • There are subjective rules and language barriers when dealing with patent examiners, so it is important to strategize and address issues in order to obtain a patent, but the patent system is constantly changing due to lobbying efforts.
    • The patent system is unpredictable and the United States is no longer the clear leader, with China being selected as better for patent protection, which is concerning.
  • 07:59 🔒 It is crucial to have someone monitoring and knowing where to find changes in order to protect your intellectual property, especially with the complexity and constant changes in patent law, and it is important to keep trade secrets confidential through measures like non-disclosure agreements and access tracking.
    • It is important to have someone monitoring all the changes and knowing where to find them in order to protect your intellectual property.
    • The complexity and constant changes in patent law make it difficult for practitioners to navigate and understand the correct procedures and exceptions when submitting patent applications.
    • Trade secrets are valuable information that give a competitive advantage, and it is important to ensure that they are kept secret through measures such as non-disclosure agreements and tracking access to the information.
  • 12:05 🔒 Maintaining trade secrets is crucial for protecting valuable intellectual property, and controlling access to confidential information is key, as encryption alone is not enough and careless handling can result in loss of trade secret status.
    • Board members should sign an NDA due to their fiduciary duty, and sharing trade secrets with one’s spouse does not count as disclosing them.
    • Trade secrets are valuable intellectual property that should be protected by keeping them confidential and controlling access to them, as they can include things like formulas, customer lists, and business plans, and disclosing too much information can give competitors an advantage.
    • Maintaining confidential information in a locked filing cabinet and controlling access to it is crucial for establishing trade secret protection, while careless handling and lack of control may result in the loss of trade secret status and the inability to seek damages.
    • Encryption alone is not enough to protect something as a trade secret; other measures must be taken to preserve its secrecy, although encryption can help maintain secrecy during transmission.
    • Preventing unauthorized access to digital content can be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and may also be considered a violation of espionage laws, triggering damages provisions, similar to the distinction between a robbery and a burglary, with criminal laws varying from state to state.
    • Preserving trade secrets is crucial as once they are exposed, they are lost forever, and while patents can protect recipes, maintaining secrecy is the easiest way to protect intellectual property.
  • 20:30 💡 Small software developers should strategically protect their intellectual property by analyzing the potential profitability of each program, prioritizing protection for programs likely to generate more revenue, despite the challenge of uncertainty and waiting periods.
    • Most of the audience are small software developers who have developed a portfolio of programs in AutoHotkey and are now trying to clean up their portfolio and ensure they have unique program names.
    • Using the TM symbol may not hold much value in a court case, but it can still serve as a deterrent and look good on the cover page of a manual.
    • The speaker advises small businesses to make strategic decisions about protecting their intellectual property based on the potential profitability of each program.
    • Consider the vulnerability and value of your programs before deciding which ones to protect, as not all programs may be likely to be stolen or generate income.
    • An important aspect of protecting intellectual property is analyzing which programs are likely to generate more revenue and selectively investing in their protection, despite the challenge of not knowing which programs will sell and the frustration of waiting three months to take action against those who steal from you.
    • Evaluate and prioritize the worth of a given thing by estimating the market size, potential profit, and other factors.
  • 27:16 🔒 License agreements can protect your code even without copyrighting it, as they can cover the rights to use a name, patent, trademark, trade secret, or code, depending on the specific language of the agreement.
    • A license can still have power even if you don’t copyright your code, as it can apply to the rights to use a name, patent, trademark, trade secret, or code, depending on the specific language of the license agreement.
    • Can a license on GitHub protect your code without copyrighting it?
    • License agreements are not rigid forms, but rather flexible documents with various provisions that can favor one party over another, and they can describe the subject matter of the agreement in different ways.
    • You need to sign an NDA to protect the code, and depending on the brand name and copyright, there may be concerns about trademarks and patents.
    • Licensing certain types of software can protect against copyright infringement, and copyrights can be enforced in federal court even after statutory rights have expired.
  • 33:39 🔒 Protecting your intellectual property (IP) is important, especially when selling in different jurisdictions, but be aware that government assistance is limited outside of the US and Europe, and consider reverse engineering your competition’s products to create a better consumer-focused product.
    • The government does not provide assistance in fighting intellectual property infringement outside of the US, except in cases of espionage, where federal statutes can be invoked.
    • If someone copies and sells your patented idea in China without entering the US or Europe, they can benefit from lower manufacturing costs and you can benefit from higher profit margins when selling in the US.
    • Consider filing for international protection of your intellectual property only if you sell within that jurisdiction, otherwise, it may not be necessary, but it is important to be aware of what you might want to protect and when you need to protect it.
    • Reverse engineering your competition’s products and ideas, while avoiding stealing their intellectual property, can help you create a better product by focusing on the consumer.
  • 38:57 🔒 Customize non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) accurately, automate document sending and tracking, and consider the cost of different types of intellectual property protections.
    • To protect your intellectual property, it is important to customize non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) by accurately describing the information you want to keep secret, rather than using generic NDAs.
    • Automate the process of sending and tracking documents using a program like ever sign, which allows customization of emails, reminder emails, and tracking of when the document is opened and executed.
    • Protecting your intellectual property through due diligence and legal processes can be more efficient and enforceable, but the cost of obtaining different types of protections can vary and is difficult to estimate.
    • Go to the pressure associates YouTube channel to estimate the cost of protecting your intellectual property, including trademarks, copyrights, patents, and trade secrets, and download the accompanying PDF for more information.
    • To protect your trade secrets, it is important to have everyone involved sign agreements with non-disclosure provisions, even if you are the one writing them.
    • If you have a contractor writing code for you, it is important to have a non-disclosure and non-use provision in the agreement, as well as an assignment of their creations to you or your entity.
  • 48:57 💡 A software company lost 90% of its purchase price due to not protecting their intellectual property, emphasizing the importance of avoiding mistakes and paying attention to prevent similar incidents.
    • A software company lost over 90% of its original purchase price because they failed to protect their intellectual property by not filing for patents, trademarks, or copyrights.
    • They lost 17 million dollars 20 years ago and it was a painful lesson to learn, emphasizing the importance of avoiding mistakes and paying attention to prevent similar incidents.
    • AutoHotkey is a scripting language that is a fork of AutoIt, and the speaker recommends reaching out to their community for a webinar, praising their onboarding process and the documents they provide.
    • There are different email sequences for different topics, such as trademarks, patents, and copyrights, that provide education and information about the process, and going through these sequences can answer most questions.
    • The speaker thanks everyone for being on the webinar and hopes to see them next month.


;********************Transcripts Hour 1***********************************

hey everyone straight lines you know we’re just getting ready to kick off our 34th AutoHotkey webinar which is amazing to me Jack and I were just chatting about it that this is our 34th one so where we’re coming up and almost doing these three years because we do one a month and that’s a pretty crazy number I’m very happy that we continued to do them and for a while they were kind of running out of ideas and then one that this great one which is what are we’re doing today my IP lawyer Stephen

Thrasher is gonna be giving us an overview and helping us understand about patents and trademarks and copyrights and things like that if I remember correctly because we had when I chatted a bit about it he has different sections and if you have a particular question about the given topic one is throw it in the chat if you like and then either when he finishes the section or if it’s spot on a very specific question to something you said and any happens take a breath I’ll go ahead and bug him interrupt him but I think with the way

he laid it out we’ll we’ll have plenty of time intermittently for questions and then at the end after the first hour then we’ll open up to just all Q&A so let’s go ahead and get going here to start off and trying to find the mouse here we go the ground rules we had 48 people register we know this is a global thing right so not everyone can attend especially them all today and so people a lot of people watch this later butyou know you start off muted and we do that mainly because it’s mayhem when

there’s more than like three people even two is tough at times to where we talk over each other so if you have a question use the chat and/or just say in the chat you can say I have the question and I’d like to be unmuted and then when we get a chance while there’s some questions are more complex than just it’s a pain to type them out so just let us know I wanted to give a quick reminder so we’ve Jackie and I be doing our podcast these last two in particular the the thoughts of what happened before

you start scripting so what do you think about before you actually pick a topic and then the next one is the preferred order or order of technology of hey if you’re gonna go automate something what do you look for a first I think if I remember correctly Jack and I are both like there’s a calm object that’s where we start and at the very end of the the next the the other end of the spectrum is sending keystrokes but I think both those podcasts were pretty interesting and could be helpful the other one I wanted to mention eyes I’ve

been reading this book automation services the future of work by Mary lassithi and Leslie Wilcox and it touches on an amazing amount of stuff that I used to do in corporate world but they’re really taking a full scale so if you’re working like with AutoHotkey and try to take it into a business or do it at your business or even be a vendor it’s it’s a really really good book I’ll put let me put this link in the chat right now for that one everyone so so that’s a link you can get the book it’s

in them it’s I can’t say enough about it’s an amazing book the other thing and then we put both of these here this is this one is the podcast link yeah it’s two they did a podcast based off of the book and then they also have this deck so these are all these are all from the same authors and they’re different pitches on it but I have they recommend hey if you don’t want to buy the book that’s fine listen to the podcast and first get an idea if you like it in this interesting and work through that PDF

it’s it’s got some interesting slides in there and data on it now the the next one let’s go in here I’m going to do a quick overview of the script highlight this is one and this is it’s kind of funny I’ve been using this script myself for years unfortunately it was written by addto-container if I can see that properly and the I could only find an executable that worked the source code the .ahk script file I couldn’t get to launch and so I didn’t want to share it as a script highlight because I was too

embarrassed to say oh here’s the source code for this AutoHotkey program but I can’t get the script to work finally I asked Maestrito give it a look and in like five minutes he fixed it and so so let me give an example here what’s great about it here’s a little Dooley example of let me let me let me bring in where there’s my Explorer I’m still lost got too many windows here maybe there’s too many screens yeah I’m it’s somewhere you’ve hidden it somewhere yeah apparently

yeah I’m clicking it in it’s okey-dokey let melet me navigate to it in a different window that is really weird and now everyone can see my structure of what I do and I can of course think in there pressure there we go all right so what it’s great for is if you have a bunch of files that have like a certain naming convention to them now watch when I when I start typing so if I wanted to get rid of this is the original and I want to get rid of parts of that in here I could listen if I want to get rid of

text document so see how I can type and get rid of it is basically stripping out what I want so I can work in here but it’s it’s I’m not going to get into all this stuff it does it does an amazing amount of things but it’s a great script that if you’re trying to rename files you can use this is using regular expressions or not but it’s a really powerful script that you can go through and rename files on your computer you can also preview it and so I can run the preview and it would show me let’s see

that the new names tell me what they’re gonna look like I think there’s even an undo button yeah I’ve never tried it because I’ve never you can literally see what its gonna look like so I’ve never made a mistake so I haven’t had to use the undo look actually alright let’s just let’s do it now you can watch right here now it’s done it now I’m curious oh look at that okay so it’s a really cool program it’s got eight million it’s got too much functionality to me I don’t

understand all the ins and outs of it but I will put the Oh actually let me get back to that so there’s a github that’s this link here and all this you’ll get emails with all this documentation as well as the deck that steve has for just 3995 no kidding yeahbut here is a link so I’m gonna put it in the chat this is the version that Maestri ahthe tweaked and so it has actually the updated HK file as well as all the other stuff in it so I didn’t go back and update the github and say here you know here were

this week so it’s anyway it’s in here at this one will run so that’s it now let’s get on to here’s here’s Steve looking really pretty in his fancy picture here he’s gonna he has information also in the back of his deck which he’s going to start here just a minute a little bit of background but but real quickly again so I’ve been using him for a couple years now and I was introduced by a mutual friend who’s been using who’s a longtime client of his and I was really impressed

both with his understanding of IP and the law but also his of his flash there’s three things that his openness and friendliness and willing to meet with you first to talk through what you’re trying to do before he starts you know charging you an arm and a leg I mean the arm the leg comes right don’t get me wrong but I’m it’s it’s at least you can have a conversation first to make sure that like you’re on the right path in which which path you want to go down anyway and he really knows his

stuff and the other one is just his use of technology for his businesses is really impressive soSteve watching let me I’m gonna stop sharing and then you can go ahead and share your desktop sure now I’m just gonna go straight to sharing the PowerPoint by the way if you know how to share a PowerPoint and zoom in a presentation mode let me know but I I haven’t figured that one out yet it’s it opens on the other window right when you launch it yes and I lose the zoom view so I can’t see why he’s come here

or anything like that so the way that this is set up right now is what I’ve done is I’ve got a quick introduction any what I want to move images so I can look this way so there’s this really quick introduction and then this actual presentation itself is broken into four sections the first section is on trademarks ii so copyrights the thirds on patents and then the fourth is on trade secrets and what this presentation is really aimed at because it is such a high level view is addressing the single biggest mistake

I see people make when it comes to protecting intellectual property and that is actually waiting until they have a problem to come in and get it registered and then there in fact that happened today got a met the company the competitor is using the spellings of their domain to redirect business through the competitor clear trademark infringement and my first question was where’s your registered trademark and the entire answer was well we don’t have one and even if I expedite it it’s gonna take three or four months to get that

trademark to register to be able to enforce their trademark in federal court there are other ways to enforce it they’re much less efficient and probably wouldn’t work so they’re coming in knowing a competitor is rerouting up not a thousand dollars worth of business a day away from them when I say business I mean profit away from them and they can’t do anything about it for probably four months because they’ve waited until after the infringement to start the protection process by the way if you

wait more than a year with a patent you lose it completely so that’s the single biggest mistake I see people make and their excuses typically well I didn’t know where to begin I didn’t even know what kind of thing I needed to follow to protect so I’m taking away that excuse from you today as we go through the presentation because I broken it up into four parts when you see the part of the presentation say on trademarks which is first ask your questions then if you hold your questions until the end and

you’ve probably never heard this from a presenter at least not very often if you hold your questions to the end my experience is people get really confused about this stuff because we’re talking about four different kinds of intellectual property and there’s different answers to actually the same question for example how long does it take for each one of these and and by waiting until the end you’re going to get confused and the other people listening will get confused so if you have a question about a

trademark ask it while we’re covering trademarks if you have a question about a copyright ask when we’re covering copyrights dito patents itto trade secrets any questions yet it’s awesome it’s a good plan all right let’s jump in so Brown rules this is not legal advice this is provided as free educational material but I hold the copyright and Joe holds the copyright so if you want to use this stuff ask us first also this presentation is not about what most attorneys talk about we are taught in

law school to talk about what are best practices it’s our job to scare you it’s our job to tell you the worst case that can happen and it’s our job to tell you I spend as much money as you can keep those bad things from happening I’m not taking that approach today if you could talk to an attorney they’re going to give you a slightly different answer than what I’m giving you because what I’m giving you is about value I’m putting on my business hat in the past if you’ve read my bio or maybe see it on

LinkedIn or some other website you’ll see I’ve owned everything from pet stores to juice bars to a home inspection software company that I work with to database processing companies and and one that exited by selling the Lucent mobile that basically tied together api’s with short codes I’ve seen lots of stuff oh by the way for some of you in the audience I was a software programmer before I went to law school all this to say I’m bringing a business perspective to this presentation I’m I’m telling you

value answers not best practices so don’t take them as legal gospel and so kind of leading into this I want to make as brown rule number three the concept that you you’ve got to know what you actually owned and the only way to know that is to do a search and the search means that full search for is actually patents and especially most especially trademarks you can’t really search a copyright you can’t really search phrase seekers but for the patents and trademarks you need to search I call this idea paternity testing you got to

know that these children belong to you so so that’s third rule now within this world of intellectual property I also want you to keep in mind what I call the two big questions big question number one is can I actually use this meaning can I use it without being sued if I choose to name my product or my company something will I get sued for trademark infringement if I choose to make a product or sell a product might I be sued for patent infringement if I choose to use a video might I be sued for copyright infringement so that’s

question number one on the table bucket number two of questions is can you make this idea your own can you actually get it registered for protection and you get a register patent can you get a registered trademark or copyright trade secrets a little bit different of course we’re going to cover those later so two big questions can I use it question number two can I protect it bucket number two cannot protect it and the analysis is different for each by the way I have trained attorneys and worked with attorneys who’ve been a you

know practicing for a year or two who are astonished at that concept so this sounds simple but when you get to the application of it it can get complex by the way Joe I can’t see the text right now so if there’s a question that comes in get my you know thank you but you know so with that let’s jump into trademarks trademarks are simply names slogans logos that are used to identify where a good or service comes from now trade markets exist not for you as a business owner interesting trademarks exist for the consumer to

keep the consumer for being confused now as it turns out you’re granted this temporary stewardship of this name slogan or logo by to the government and it’s in your hands so you can prevent consumers from getting confused and if people steal your customers you’re rewarded the damages for that theft that’s to encourage you to keep consumers from getting confused but if you keep that public policy in mind of it’s not about rewarding you the business owner for coming up with a cool name it’s about protecting consumers a

lot of the confusion in trademark law falls away and by the way that public policy point of view is true internationally now I’m going to contrast that the patents and copyrights patents and copyrights exist to reward inventors and creative artists to encourage them to create more stuff so completely different policies vs.

trademarks which exists to prevent confusion examples of famous trademarks of course are McDonald’s I fit down a list of food or picture of food logos here on the screen and you’ll notice that most logos come with a name as well now when logos get super famous let’s say the McDonald’s golden arches notice they don’t in a McDonald’s next to their logo because that golden arches is so famous today but that wasn’t the case 50 years ago and it so how does a trademark become famous and get so powerful and

the answer is a big advertising budget and unlike patents and unlike copyrights which kind of had this black/white by an area exist that’s either you have your patent or you don’t pretty much so a little bit different and again keep in mind it’s about preventing confusion in the mind of the consumer frameworks have this giant spectrum of rights and strengths based on actual consumer Association of that name or logo with you the provider of that good or service hope that makes sense by the way some slogans because this is

actually something that people will contact me about quite frequently hey can i copyright a slogan well actually you can’t copyright a slogan but you may be able to trademark it so here are some of the famous slogans no rules just right Outback Steakhouse eat fresh any ideas the business behind the phrase eat fresh it’s the slogan for Subway sandwiches and then all the news that’s fit to print I picked that because it’s a complete sentence and so sometimes people will say can i copyright or patent or trademark a sentence and well

yes yes as long as consumers associate that sentence with your business or product all the news that’s fit to print is the New York Times is owned by the New York Times is a registered trademark so some facts behind trademarks when do you file well in the United States it’s best to follow the trademark as soon as you’re using it you can again this is the value question not and the value answer not be best practice this answer the best practices answer is file an application before you’re actually

using it to reserve the right to use it and stop other people in case there’s another registration that’s kind of cost you two or three times as much money as doing it this way so the best way to do this or value is to file for your trademark application as soon as you’re actually using it that can be a day or two after you start using it same day but if you follow before you actually start using it exits and then all these extra affidavits stop it takes about a week to two weeks to do a search to

prepare and then to file the initial trademark application and after it’s on file it typically takes about another nine months to go through what’s called an examination things there’s two parts to an examination phase by the way there’s examination in the trademark office itself and then there’s an examination that occurs called an opposition phase what’s that trademark publishes for public opposition and inspection that last 30 days by statute it can be extended but in your mind think 30 days

now the cool thing about a trademark is that it actually lasts as long as you use it and keep the registrations renewed properly so after it issues you have to redo it the fifth year and then the tip here and then every ten years after that but as long as you keep using it and as long as consumers go back to that public policy make that association between the name slogan and logo and you being the person providing that service or the business that provides that service you continue to own that trademark you actually Joe when a grant

asked for the name of a program so when you give a program a name is that a trademark or a copyright so with that he a computer program yeah yeah that we’ve I think you cannot yeah I’m pretty sure the answer is copyright so I’m gonna jump in real quick but yeah that’ll be my bed as well you’ll probably be back in a moment yeah by the way so while he’s while he’s not a little infomercial these are two books that I have visual hammer is is really with the trademarks and then battlecry is for more about the

copywriting stuff and logos and slogans how his power went out Oh sleep well in common would ever happen right back on in the future said soyeah what were you say I was just going to talk to captain Odin who said he would say trademark where we’re from what I just heard from from Stephen was the trademark is more like a sentence or a catchphrase like if I had a program named Steve and I said always ask Steve then it would be always ask Steve that was trademarked and Steve that was copyrighted yeah because again there’s

no legal it’s not actually protecting you it’s for the consumer right it’s and so you know I again I’m maybe you don’t know I I have a master’s of market research I studied brand I didn’t I study brands from the business perspective not from the legal perspective right so I have a long history of brands and I remember in my class they talked about how where brands came from and it was you know especially back when before people were literate and couldn’t read they would put up

pictures of things right and that’s how people remembered like oh this is where I stayed last time because they couldn’t actually read the thing but they could recognize the picture picture behind it but yeah and I also have this other book which back to his point on the the pretty logos and icons and and whatnot yeah can you can you take presenter role or something I’m at least I’m seeing a lot of very small squares on screen might just be me or maybe share screen I sure you bet yeah let melet me see me yeah I’ll

share my screen okay that better yeah it’s it might not be better for everybody but to me it just seemed weird that I was looking at these very small images we don’t need you tripping out you know it’s funny you know it is kind of ironic right then like the only time something goes wrong what law is that and more more yeah yes is when you’re right in the middle of something really important actually it’s funny I didn’t I don’t see Sean but John I helped him with a webinar on QAP the quick access

pop-up tool written in AutoHotkey andI was co-hosting it was very similar to this my power went out or my my internet went out and I all sudden he’s like Joe Joe andthankfully I I ran downstairs and i sponged off my neighborduring the webinar but it was it was yeah would like what are the odds yeah okay couldn’t you have used I don’t know how much data you have on your phone of course but couldn’t you maybe have used your iPhone yeah I have unlimited data and for whatever reason because it’s unlimited I can’t create a

hotspot oh yeah her enough yeah I we we had we had something that they were offering unlimited data as well but with a 50 gigabyte sharing limit you could make hotspots but you could only do so okay so we’re back in Stephens back and so we had a couple questions one was what’s the difference between the trademark you know the TM versus registered trademark with the shirt so and by the way I’m unable to share my screen right now also ok so by the way I don’t know if the last answer ever got it across somebody

asked if they could trademark name of a computer code if that’s the the name that you sell it to the to the consumers under or license it than yes so then the difference between a TM and an R M is just a way of saying I am claiming rights to this name this logo this slogan but you’re not stating that it’s a registered trademark and it does not actually give notice of having a registered trademark a circle R means that your mark is actually registered by the federal trademark office and so that’s the distinction between the two

you know if before you get the trademark register while it’s pending use a TM if somebody’s holding off on registering for some reason finances or otherwise use a TM but the caveat here using ATM in a courtroom its you about that much it can make you feel good and maybe it will discourage a competitor that’s what I did concern him but is that circle are that really gives you authority and power when you get into a courtroom the other question we had was for the for the name of a program is that something

that would be a trademark or a copyright yeah if it’s the name that you sell the program under you know if it’s something that you call it internally and the answer is neither if it’s something that you identify as you know the product that you’re selling or that you’re licensed saying at this the way the consumers see go back that as the you know the public policy behind the trademarks it’s all about the consumer if it’s if the consumer recognizes that is the name that your your selling under

yeah a perfect thing for trademark protection company but it only protects the name it doesn’t protect the substance of the code which is what we get to hearing a little bit that’s a great distinction and then do you have any sort of ballpark pricing of for how much does it cost to register a trademark sure so what I have actually for all of these types of intellectual property is something I call the evite of system so there’s the e5 trademark system and that covers education then you need to evaluate them more you know

and then you prepare and violet then you go through an examination and then you go through an enforcement period did it go from the evaluation phase you’re actually filing the mark I do evaluate your way through that surge and so the rule of thumb is for a full search and a brief review with me it starts at nine hundred and ninety five dollars then to file a registration on a word mark cost another nine hundred and ninety five dollars for one class and then frequently I’ll use the yellow pages if you remember those things

names can exist in each of the categories of of an industry or industries so you know there used to be you know triple-a plumbing and a triple-a muffler and a triple-a bowling alley and of course they’re all trying to get to the front listing of the trading or yellow pages rather but you would never think that the same person owns all of them even though they use the same name the trademark systems the same way it divides industries and surfaces into classes and especially when a mark is not famous or well-known

by the way a famous mark is a type of or strength of registration it is a literal thing you actually have to go to court to get declare that you’re famous so it’s not cheap to do but if you pull up that bottle of Heinz ketchup and read the back of it sometime when you’re bored it will actually say famous mark I think that’s literally a status but all this to say going back to trade marking the code that that’s yes the name of the code is what you would trade market it only protects the name and then the I

think I’m leaving a question hanging Emma it’s about the copyright when would you actually use copyright them okay that’s actually going to be the next section mmm Ferno we can get to that when you jump right into copyright or what I was there was one more question abilities is looking for your your deck here yeah I don’t know if you you’re able to share yet but I’m I told up what you’d sent to me but Ryan had two questions I don’t know if you can see can you see the chat I mean I can read

it to you but they have multiple trademarks in several jurisdictions okay and his question is what should we say in the acknowledgement on the website should they reference one or more operating companies in different territories usually that’s done in a section of a webpage called legal you know where you would list privacy policies Terms of Service Terms of Use pretty much use for registration numbers patents if your code is protected with patents patents that apply it’s not something you have to lead with the

circle are should put people I noticed that it’s their duty it’s just the burden to people that are thinking about using a name similar to yours to go forward and actually do the research to figure out a is are these ideas that are these names that they can actually use and when you say multiple drawer diction’s I’m assuming that you mean multiple different countries or areas yeah I know Ryan is international so I’m pretty sure of the answer to that but you can chime in here in a second yeah

joe go on slideshow yep yeah you’re fiddling with your screen on the slideshow tab yep yeah you’re on the View tab right now go to the slideshow tab there’s a use percentage yeah no I saw your oh nice they just saw you looking around sorry to interrupt with that but yeah a little technical great explanation of that yeah so kind of transitioning here into copyright and by the way what I plan to do is go through this recording and type the q and a’s and insert them as slides at the end of each section and

that’s what I’d like to circulate on Friday sure so now that I’m getting a message that says that I can’t start screen share oh sure yeah well that’s because I was sharing my screen so the milk’ got it where I can go either way do whatever you like where no I’m happy to it’s a lot easier if you’re doing it there you go now you should be able to cool okay so we’re gonna jump into copyrights and I’m out of PowerPoint just to try to make this go a little bit faster copyrights protect artistic

expression is the way that some people describe it it is something that encourages creative people to be creative so if you think of things that come out of a creative community and I had the list here art text like a best-seller but also text like software that’s why the code is next three-dimensional objects sculpture photos videos music all of these things that in the realm of copyright I pick some examples here and there they’re selected to illustrate things people frequently forget the copyrights apply

to three-dimensional works like the thinker of romance and carpet they also applied to derivatives asuno this kind of up here there’s the Marley looking guy with the dreadlocks and then there’s an alternate image of his something that’s altered is called a derivative and the owner of a derivative of an image is actually the original owner of the original image not the person that derived it and so you’ll see a lot of litigation and conflict in there now the caveat is unless the person that did the derivative stuff had

permission to use the original so and then there and again a lot of this stuff is on a spectrum if something gets completely original then are those changes copyright protected and the answer is if they’re creative enough so yeah now we’re into non software stuff but I like the article who stole my song because it’s copyrighted copyright a bold text using copyrighted images about a copyrightable song and something to write from it so you get a lot of different examples of copyright material right there within the world of

copyrights unlike trademarks that are just based on you so when I say use of me trying to sell something to the public copyrights they’re magic day is a date of publication now as you might expect there are a lot of fights about what does the word publish mean but basically when you intend to get it out into the world consider it published at that day go ahead and file for the copyright protection and there are tremendous advantages and filing for copyright protection within the first three months of you

so you might know that with a patent you have a year to file and if you don’t file within the Europe you’re your first use of it then you lose the right to file anywhere at least that’s the United States role Europe’s different Europe you actually have to follow the application before you started using your product well with copyrights you’re given this three month grace period and then your rights kind of stair step down over time I won’t go into all the complexities of that but if you file

within the first three months after publication very title in the event of a lawsuit somebody stealing your stuff – an injunction – a presumption that you’re going to get attorneys fees and to something called statutory damages it eliminates about half of a trial or half of a temporary restraining order hearing and it gives the judge a really easy way to avoid a dollar that money to you this is the rule that if a bike correctly by frankly copyright trolls this is what they used to beat infringers over the head with

because copyright law unlike say trademark law is very favorable toward awarding attorneys fees so for you turn that into an advantage Bob for your copyright within three months of publication we’ll get to the cost in a second but I think a copyright is probably the most underutilized piece of intellectual property especially in the software world basic timeline it takes about a week to prepare copyright application most of that’s just back and forth with a client making sure that the right materials are on hand and that

it’s going to be presented in the right way and that the correct owner is identified identifying the wrong boner is something that I see frequently happen in copyright applications and correcting that mistake they think that it’s true by the way for trademarks will cost you about three to five times as much money as doing it right the first time and it delays your ability to go enforce that right I had a client come see me last August and they acquired some trademarks through and copyrights but trademarks primarily through a chain of

cells of franchise rights and those documents were missed file in the Trademark Office again same rules of piper copyrights here because they were missed file I had to first correct the filings going back then filed the correct people were going forward and even though they were being knocked off last August it was actually March before we could start telling the people that had stolen stuff from them to stop so do it right the first time at ace he’s a big time how long does a copyright last your lifetime

plus 70 years or 100 years for corporation but Disney lobbies and changes the law about every 25 years that’s just the plain truth they were able to lobby for changes of rules and I believe late 60s in the late 70s again about the year 2000 give or take a little bit and of course every time the rule passes or gets updated the copyrights get extended copyrights originally in the 1800’s lasted 14 years just like patents at that time obviously they’re completely different time frames now are there any questions about

copyrights at this point so one was just you keep mentioning make sure you file it but where are we filing it where does it happen call me technically in the Library of Congress at the US Copyright Office it is completely unaffiliated with the Trademark Office I will also say the copyrights do go through an examination things the same ePHI steps that apply to trademarks apply to copyright it’s typically a much faster examination but it’s an in the nation no less and if you don’t respond to a rejection letter

or an inquiry from the Copyright Office your your ability to push that application through gets tossed out and if your application is tossed out and you don’t respond fast enough it’s like starting all over again and I mentioned earlier if you file within that four month window you get all these extra rights and window goes away forever so you gotta act quick and you gotta act correctly and so that was where I was gonna chime in Steve we talked about this before too but it’s one of those things you can end up doing more harm

trying to do you’re thinking hey I’m gonna do it on the cheap I can get the Sun it’s not that complicated but it isn’t just the amount of work you put into it it’s that missed time and also possibly once you start getting out there and someone else sees it and if they start processing it properly right you can really end up in the world of hurt yeah you know I think he’s all kinds of examples I actually went to law school because I tried to do my own patent and screwed it up over the years

I’ve trained over half a dozen patent attorneys trademark attorneys copyright attorneys I have never seen an attorney or any other applicant submit something correct that I would let go through to the to the office right the first time rarely to the second time or the third or the fourth get this stuff right as har because her you can read the word published here on this page for the copyrights but I doubt the audience and in fact I could probably do a two-hour seminar nuances and what the work publish means and how it’s different

between an architect or an architectural work a piece of sculpture a printed publication a photograph and a video and and that that word alone will hang you up so you know just just like if you’re a you know if you’re a mechanic you or par me if you have a car problem you go to a mechanic you’ve ever put me problem you go to a plumber if you’re really big into do-it-yourself and clean it up yourself more power to you but inevitably if you do your plumbing wrong you might be replacing your hardwood for

your kitchen cabinets and your carpet and everything else in your home or apartment intellectual property is going to be the same way however if you do your plumbing wrong you can probably rebuild your house if you do your copyright or your patent or Chrome even your trademark or wrong guess what you may lose the ability to later come in and offer your patent all together and you’re definitely losing rights and copyright and you’re almost certainly losing rights and trademarks too so yeah there’s a reason

professional it’s exist for this stuff in the very beginning when you started off with your story I was trying to be good but I’ve caved I have to say this example it was it was like saying oh you know hey I had a baby I’m gonna now go and put a condom on because you know I’m gonna go fix the thing I did you know several months ago and it’s like it doesn’t work that way you don’t you don’t you can’t just you’ve already done something wrong and man you’re gonna pay

for it right there you go yeah so yeah and these are you know horse out of the barn kind of problems when you try to do it yourself and by the way I mentioned these stories about people coming into my office and doing it wrong I’ll give you another I had somebody come to my office actually they called me I went to theirs about a month ago they have a product that they received the patent on and they went for a cheap lawyer route and so they weren’t told how to use their patent they weren’t told what they

needed to do to keep it alive into the make forcible and they’re being copied by the big names in their industry to the tune of over a hundred million dollars a year they came to my office I looked at what is sitting and you know baby what they brought me and I can’t get a nickel for them I can’t even get an injunction for them because they didn’t keep their patent to live the right way and they didn’t put a notice on their products those are easy easy problems two things and I see these kind of

problems happen all the time when people try to be you know to use the phrase to of relatives I have in England it is Pennywise and pound-foolish and and I see it all the time and it’s frankly one of the things that breaks my heart because you know you see the advertisements on TV and you think oh this must be so easy a child could do it no well the problem is they can do it and they can screw it up right you you think you’re good is I think that’s the real danger well when I was a kid I remember going to my dad’s office and

pulling out the forms that he had he was he worked with technology with AT&T and I pull up his forms I’d pull off the IP IBM Selectric typewriter and I would just I jump into the into the blank boxes and I would pretend like I had done something genius and put it off to the side and show my dad and unfortunately when you try to do your own application and when the government takes a look at what you’ve got in those boxes it will look as gibberish II to them as my IBM Selectric typewriter did and my dad back then and it’s not

because you’re not smart it’s just because the stuff is is nuanced and confusing yeah


;*********************Transcripts Hour 2**********************************

so patents I’m gonna first over the distinction that there are two completely different kinds of patents that you’ll hear people talk about when they use the word patents one is called a design patent that protects ornamentation a design patent just protects the look out of the thing so one of the famous design patents is actually the look of your iPhone just the appearance of where the screen is where the button is the the shading of the metal that’s what a design patent covers think of the design patent is a

way to protect a form factor but only the look and feel of the form factor I believe I heard at one point that that this is the circle button on the iPhone as well what psyche to be challenged yeah it’s a there is a family of cases called Samsung versus Apple and Apple versus Samsung but yes that that dealt with portfolios of patents and Apple eventually won those cases interestingly Apple in those cases their damages were about if I remember right 15 million for the utility patent infringement and something like 220 million for the

design patent infringement so just because design patents protect look that will think that they’re not powerful but 90% of the time when people are talking about patents what they’re really talking about our utility patents so these patent images are from some famous patents that I can use to illustrate some points because a patent can protect a process and software as a process and so one example you’ll see is straight out of the state free institution which is the famous patent law decision in which the Supreme Court

said yeah software is something that can be patentable now subject it to a lot of restrictions we don’t have time today but some people say well can you patent things that are dangerous well turns out and I have the revolver image here that weapons are one of the most common patents out there in fact you’ll see a surge in patent filings Gary and conflict periods it’s just a civil war or war one or two the Wright Flyer is is patented I use the Wright Flyer as an example sometimes because the patent

that the Wright brothers got wasn’t on the actual airplane who is actually on what’s called wing warping or ways to maneuver something in the air by changing the way that the wings were formed also an electric guitar the musical instruments are patentable as our games and so these are coming categories that people ask can I get a patent for for this now when he bought our patents in the United States and frankly most of the rest of the world now we’re in what’s called a first-to-file World War a first-to-file

system this means that whoever gets to the Patent Office first with an application for that innovation gets the patent the old system prior to about five years ago was that if you invented first and kept an inventor’s notebook you could still square back and and get the invention rights as a patent that’s gone so now you in fact a lot of companies that are innovative will bundle stuff they have every week or two and send it to the Patent Office is something called a provisional patent application that’s a less expensive way

to get something in the Patent Office because first the file really matters a lot today literally we call it the brushes to the Patent Office what are your basic timelines it takes about two weeks do a patent search get the results back go through those results and then go over them intelligently with the client with you then once you’ve made a decision to move forward with an application and actually filed something it takes about four to six weeks to prepare and file a utility patent application and frankly a design patent

application the reason why is because it’s actually at the time we wait on the drawings to come back and going through iterations of drawings with the illustrator that can take the most time once on file it will take between 9 months and 18 months for an examination you can take longer actually depending on the kind of technology that you have some bio technologies financial transaction software patents which are very rare by the way those applications can take two years or longer to get an examination then once you’re in the

examination phase it can last months and it can last years and there’s almost no way to predict how long that Willy will be there are five thousand examiner’s I frequently tell clients that means that they’re actually 5000 patent offices because some of the rules about patent allowance are kind of subjective and when you’re dealing with patent examiner’s you’re dealing with real human beings some of them barely speak English and may not have a lot of familiarity with your technology area and as unfair as

that sounds that’s just what happens and so you have to be able to once you get into the Patent Office and you read what’s called an office action or a letter from the Patent Office you then have to re-strategize how you’re going to address those issues with the examiner in order to get something allow you hope helen is a patent lasts it’s 20 years from the day that you first file for something for utility yet for a design application rather it’s 15 years from the date that something issues but it’s different

but all this said remember this things are changing all the time and the Patent Office because frankly the system is messed up and there are enough companies lobbying for their favorite sets the rules right now that there are acts pending in Congress constantly they cover the patent system some of them I love and help secure patent rights and others scare the bejesus out of me and in fact the system has become so unpredictable that in some skills of or some surveys of what nation is best about patents in the United States is

following from the clear number one into a pack of about 15 countries tied for number two I don’t know what that means that there are 50 no inside to it another survey like China was actually selected as better than the United States for getting an electoral property protectively specifically for patent protection that just bugs me to death any questions that have come in Germannot particularly on this but Joe we’re gonna give Joe another try here Joe are you able to talk okay well see what we can jump into trade

secrets I’m finally that unless Jackie you have any questions he’s trying right now okayI have one butI’ll sit on it until the end I think because it’s it’s kind of a wide question anyway okay what I won’t say I still don’t hear but I’m is it’s easy he’s still having problems he’ll ride it out or somethingwas given all the changes and I think this is applicable across all the things this is another reason why at least for me I’m happy to pay someone who’s

actually monitoring all of the stuff all the changes right and I can feel better even you know I trust you know what you’re doing but at least I can sleep at night knowing I’m not going to screw something up and I’m just paying someone else to know what they’re doing well you know wonders there’s the issue of changes number two there’s the issue of knowing where to even look to find is something to change and there’s something called the manual of patent at an examination procedure or npep there’s

one for trademark examination procedure one for patent procedures about two thousand two hundred pages long pretty more procedures about seven hundred fifty pages long there’s not one for copyright procedure pacific they have things called circulars also several hundred pages and it is amazing how many times I’ll look up a rule and exceptions to a rule or something I feel pretty confident should be the case and I will discover that there’s this really weird case or decision by the Patent Office that

additional papers have to be a hatch burger or something’s there and you know if I think what if I was starting in law today I would not go into patent law because it is so freakin hard to figure out what the right way to do things is before you submit stuff because the rules have changed around I mentioned all these different acts pending and Congress a lot of them are there to try to clean up so many of these judicially created exceptions and you know as a practitioner it’s almost impossible to keep track of which circuit courts are

saying what about which kind of inventions whether biotech or software or something else it’s it’s become a morass rate to jump into trade secret yes let’s do it alright so trade secrets any information that gives you a competitive a competitive advantage and this actually a secret so one of the things that really surprises me is how many times people will come into my office and they’re mad at an employee or they’re mad at a competitor or stealing something and when I asked them about well how can you prove it’s a secret

they say oh well it’s on my blog well it’s not a trade secret if it’s not a secret so the good news about a trade secret is that in terms of low-cost intellectual property if you’re a startup company this is the cheapest thing you can do is actually track who has access to what and make sure that they sign non-disclosure agreements or other agreements with non-disclosure provisions in them that’s building a wall around your your idea your secret in addition to non-disclosure agreements secrets can be preserved by a

relationship such as a fiduciary relationship so if somebody’s on your board of directors they don’t necessarily have to sign an NDA they should but because they have a fiduciary duty the court won’t say well the horse is out of the barn because you know you didn’t have them sign an NDA also a privilege can preserve a trade secret so if you tell your wife something at home the courts not going to look at that and say well that let the secret out of the bag now if she doesn’t tell somebody

else it’s out but but at least within those relationships it’s maintained as a secret examples of trade secrets or her the most famous is probably the coca-cola formula but it also applies to things like the the eleven herbs and spices of KFC chicken but it also applies to things that are much more you might think common or compilations of publicly available information like a customer list or supplier list there’s volumes of trade secret law in Texas just based on insurance agents taking old customer lists and calling on

them and then the the trade secret that the people watching probably or their business plan especially as it relates to when you’re going to select certain types of advertising for certain kinds of markets and so be very careful about how much information you’re letting out there because your competition will use that against you that they can other kinds of trade secrets might be your actual code prior to filing for a copyright registration or are actually publishing it so Freight secrets are low-cost intellectual

property that is protected by virtue of you building a walling and keeping track of who that has access and why they do why they either have a duty to keep it secret or how you go about making it secret by the way I did I was briefly in the Air Force Reserves I don’t know if anybody else was I worked at McDonnell Douglas think of trade secrets is kind of like your your top secret information it’s the stuff that you maintain in a locked full a locked file in a red folder so that when it’s brought out of

that finally cabinet everybody sees this guy is holding something red and then when you when you go home at night you take it you put it back in the filing cabinet you make sure it’s locked and you take the key home with you if you can go in front of a judge and tell them here are the people that have seen the document here here’s why they aren’t supposed to disclose it yes I keep it in a locked filing cabinet and in fact it’s in a red folder do you think the judge is going to say that’s probably a trade

secret Astra’s yes and in fact that’s how I worked on a few cases where trade seeker images have been awarded if on the other hand you can’t show who had access to it and maybe you took that over home at night and maybe you let people make copies of it maybe it was just left out where the cleaning people had access to it or maybe it was in the break room and it’s treated very casually a lot of judges will bust that as a trade secret as simple it’s not really a secret you can’t get damages for it because you’re

there to ask a judge to give you money because somebody else took something they weren’t supposed to with the widow related question to this is with with a lot of us actually doing coding and programs and stuff what encrypting what you had made be enough protection to say it was a trade secret whoa so two parts to that answer the encryption by itself doesn’t make it a trade secret right you still have to show that other things have been done to preserve it as a secret especially at the point where it could be you know

unencrypted yeah almost anything can be unencrypted within reason of course within reason right but but the encryption is a way to as being secret through the points at which you know it’s being transmitted what’s interesting about your example is if something is improperly unencrypted by a third party it’s not only a violation of trade secret law it’s also a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act it may actually also be a violation of espionage laws so because it’s because you’ve taken an affirmative step to

prevent access then even if it’s just the password and username then it triggers the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and now if someone improperly breaks your access mechanism it triggers the damages provisions of the DMCA or Digital Millennium Copyright Act that reminds me of I I believe this is maybe it’s the Morman fates but if you if you leave your car and locked and someone breaks into it it’s one crime but if you actually lock the doors and they break into it it gets elevated right so I’m not a criminal

lawyer but I think that’s the distinction between a robbery and a burglary for whatever whatever that’s worth yeah you know then there’s a even another distinction or when it occurs at night hmm so and by the way criminal laws vary from state to state so you know as a lawyer in the state you’re in for specifics on that yeah we understand you’re like given legal advice yeah sure so you know the key to protecting a trade secret well there’s nothing to file but you must actually keep it a

trade secret by the way you might remember about a decade ago there was a lady apparently we had offered to sell the formula coca-cola to Pepsi and she got turned in I don’t know how she got access to that formula but let’s say she had published that formula in the Wall Street Journal it would have been the end of Coca Cola’s trade secret so this is this is why there’s a motivation sometimes to file a patent application on a recipe a compilation of stuff and by the way some recipes are patented now

I have it all for a patent on one maybe and over a decade but once the trade secrets gone it’s gone and so for that reason some people opt to select a different form of intellectual property but if you can preserve the trade secret and demonstrate that it’s preserved properly a report you can maintain it as a secret as long as you can or as a trade secret as long as it’s actually a secret does that make sense yeah all right so it’s so I’m it just easiest crate it’s the easiest to lose that’s why any questions

on trade secrets no butJoey changed Mike so Burt we’re gonna give it one more try here real quick right okay how about now hey we can hear you oh yes that turned out to be a setting in this zoom software where it picks the wrong mic by default anyway so here I don’t want to make assumptions about the people the audience today and I guess there are forty some and I think many of us came to this through being involved with Jackie and Joe on these AutoHotkey webinars so I think most of us are probably and maybe I should just speak

for myself but but small software developers we write programs here you mentioned some hundred million dollar situation you know why don’t back and you know we’re not hundred million dollar kind of guys here I don’t think so you know my situation is I’ve got a portfolio and almay be a few dozen programs that I’ve developed over the last ten years all in AutoHotkey and now I’m trying to clean up the portfolio and get it to the point where I’ve got standard user interfaces and good the

reason I asked the question I learned about program names I’ve got a unique program name some are acronyms some are not some have tag lines and so I and what I’ve just been doing is putting the TM on and as you mentioned earlier that’s you’re worth about zero if it comes to a cAutot case so it’s nothing right so so the might scare away people hell maybe and it looks good on the cover page of my manual so I mean for I guess that makes me a little bit unusual maybe as a lot ofHotkey developers I

actually produce user guides and installation guides and manuals but but but the real question comes down so and the reason I asked the question earlier about money is that if you’ve if I’m sitting here with a couple of and programs and I finally and the goal is for me to get a website up and get some some ability to mark and sell the programs which I don’t have right now but as I start to do that I’d like to have some form of protection on them but I don’t expect to sell a whole boatload

of stuff I don’t expect to make a whole lot of money on it and so the notion that I think you mentioned earlier could and maybe with lawyer time as well it could start costing a fair amount of money especially when you’re trying to project a dozen programs or a couple dozen programs with a dozen taglines and a dozen unique program names so what’s you know how are you going to deal with us small guys here and not the 100 million-dollar guys well by the way the small guys are who I specialize in when

I mentioned 100 million dollar markets usually what happens is I have a client that’s maybe revenue in five to ten million and a competitor’s taking the product and going big with it and so the competitor is the one that’s making 100 million off of it but the address your question specifically this really boils down to making the right business decisions and sitting down and figuring out well how much money does you mentioned 12 programs how much this program won make you how much money this program to make you go down the list

next question how likely is it that that program will be copied this one is still it from you assess that then you want to look at well it if it’s stolen what what might happen next and at that point at the end you know you might recognize that some of the programs that you have are particularly vulnerable and particularly valuable oh those you probably want to protect you probably have other programs that aren’t particularly vulnerable maybe a in a cash cow but you you trust whoever’s licensing it for whatever reasons and

maybe you have some security keys in to make sure that if it’s used improperly that it turns off or something you know you’d be less interested in protecting those that you don’t think are likely to be stolen or that doesn’t make you money you know it’s for example what I haven’t registered a copyright on the presentation that was just made today why at the moment I don’t care if anybody steals like in fact that’s kind of a working process I haven’t even finished it yet but but you know just

because you have something doesn’t mean you shouldn’t protect it but you want to consider it that makes sense yeah it does you know the problem is you mentioned you know sit down look at each program and you know it says how much money you’re gonna make from it the problem is on day one you make nothing on it and you mentioned that it’s actually though important to do this early in the process so like if I need to do within the first three months or something then I’m really betting on the

comm and I guess what I need to do is analyze of those couple of dozen programs in my portfolio which ones are likely to make more money and and not spend a whole boatload of money upfront protecting all them but it’s a it’s obviously a catch-22 here and that it’s hard to know what are these programs going to sell and which ones are worth protecting and ultimately how much revenue I want to get from them and frankly I don’t I don’t have a clue yeah and you know the the flipside of this are the clients like the one I met with

before this meeting who discovered that somebody’s diverting customers based on their name and you know my directions to them were hey you gotta get things registered before we can go and force them and that’s gonna take about three months look it’s hard to stomach people stealing stuff from you for three months before you can go and force it you know so it’s a balance you don’t want to be a one extreme or the otherand I Jackie and I can talk about this offline butyou know my backgrounds in market

research Joe I we can maybe we can plan a webinar to talk through how do you evaluate how do you come up with your best estimate of what a given thing is worth mm-hmm because it’s estimating the size of the market the how much money can I make off each one and a lot of other factors of you know things but maybe there’s something we talked through of just to help help decide prioritize and gauge some idea right yep okay thanks to both you appreciate the comments well I I didn’t see any other questions come that way does a does a

license have any power if you don’t copyright your code yeah I think I know what he’s asking so let me take a shot at this license agreements apply to you know rights to use rights to use a name like a patent or trademark or a trade secret or code frequently a license will articulate that the light the thing being licensed is a product sometimes a license will articulate that the thing being licensed is all intellectual property related to XYZ sometimes it will say it’s the license of a patent or the license of a

trademark or the license of a trade secret trade secret copyright or harm a trade secret licenses are really common in franchise situations so the answerer does a license apply to unregister copyright material depends on the language the very specific language of that License Agreement probably it does because if frequently what you’ll see in a license agreement for code this license is that we use a parade phrase like the code is being licensed or copyrightable code is licensed you’ll rarely see the phrase

the copyright did code it’s usually not stated at all or it’s stating register register a bowl there was some clarification here so he said like on github you can select a license but does that is that actually protecting you protecting you okay now we go to the two big questions that we talked about at the very beginning bucket one questions can I use it look at two questions can I make it exclusively mine and so the question of can I protect it do you mean can you use it without being sued or do you mean can I register it independently

I think this question goes to that bucket one question can I use it if I’m licensing it on github is that correct I don’t think well I mean because the initial question was does a license have any power if you don’t copyright your code this is from the same person so I’m thinking it was more of the other example you gave of does it give you any protection Oh regardless he said he thinks you answered his question so okay yeah by the way license agreements people will think that it’s a form that sent

down or something there are about 40 common provisions and every license agreement and each of those 40 provisions can have degrees of favorability to one party it can be neutral or they can have degrees of favorability to the other party and then they can describe the subject matter of the agreement in different ways a license agreement is a very fluid thing well don’t think of a license agreement as a form that will trip you up every time so I had I had one that’s kind of related to that in the business let’s

say I I have a product as the software products I’ve created but it’s very very specific for Steve you have this thing where you’re you’re doing something and we’ve agreed that I’m gonna I’m gonna create software for you mm-hmm you’re not actually gonna own the top the the IP about it right I’m writing it I own the IP but we want to get you to sign an NDA and saying you’re not going to go and try to peek into the the code itself and and rip it out and then fire us and just take the code

right do we have to worry about any of the copyright and trademark and you know any patent anything with that will be we do an NDA and sign it in our agreement up front well the patent yes because it’s a public use with its trademark it depends are you calling it by a brand name and as that brand name important to you for a copyright you’re really on the edge now sell triggers of likely triggers of publication under the rules of copyright law if it’s certain tight and let’s say a cell I mean a license if you if you

license certain types of software say something that’s embedded and hardware and if it’s saying machine code in a way that can’t be reversed engineered easily then that might be deemed a non publication actually you don’t have to worry about even copyright now the cool thing about copyrights by the way is they last life to the author Plus 70 years and even though you’ve lost most of what are called your statutory rights after five years you can always go back file for registration and get these

residual rights and copyright including the right to enforce your copyright to that creation in a federal court so that that’s kind of your your ongoing last resort it doesn’t entitle you to attorneys fees treble damages – Ettore and all the other good stuff that come if you fall within three months but you can kind of pull the horse back into the barn with copy rides at least a little bit that means that you’re going forever and then this is actually plays well into that so Dale had asked about it’s

really about protecting the copyright patent or or IPE but when it’s told by someone especially outside the US right it seems like it would be a good expensive trying to fight someone in India or China or wherever they are I’m in does does the government help at all with any of that is it a private thing now it’s completely private absent espionage there–some SP there are provisions that can kick in and create federal statutes if someone steals your idea let’s say you have a US patent but only a US patent or a US and European

patent but only those two and let’s say somebody knocks off her idea in China and makes uses and sells it in China but doesn’t enter the US or Europe they get away with that every day of the week you know and so there is in the in the consumer market for consumer goods particularly the sell on TV kind of goods on a concept called beneficial infringement you know there’s a rule of thumb in manufacturing that if you double the amount of goods manufactured you cut your cost of manufacturing by about a third so so by letting your this

Chinese manufacturer or Indian manufacturer make and sell their product in Asia and drive up their quantity of goods produce you can lower your cost and then when you sell them in the US you have a much higher profit margin they try to control all quantities out of that point of manufacturing so that’s a concept of beneficial infringement that’s less true if what you’re making software but yeah you can Brooke you can go broke in a big hurry pursuing international protection where it’s unnecessary or where you can’t

import and so being international protection as a be I could pick any one of these kinds of intellectual property and do a weekend seminar on international action for any of the deep deep topic cool good I’ll give you a rule of thumb though if you sell within that jurisdiction then you might want to consider filing for protection in that jurisdiction if you don’t probably don’t need to again that’s the value answer that’s not the best practices answer I think we’re caught up in the questions cool so my

challenge your advice to take action even if you don’t follow for something go through this process think about what you might want to protect and when you need to protect it just mentally go through that process because if you don’t have an awareness it’s going to slip through the cracks no matter what and who knows you might be able to identify something that actually has some pretty good value you know there was a time when they thought that the idea of ranking web pages by links was silly you know to take the opposite

angle of your entire presentation but just to be mean I actually felt a lot better about my my borrowing of other people’s secret I forget what you called trade secrets well cuz they’re there they’re out there sharing what they’re doing and they say what they do and I’m like oh that’s brilliant I’ll do it and I always felt you know like I’m stealing stuff I’m like yet hey they’re they’re making it public right I mean yeah you might be familiar with a concept called

funnel packing which has been made popular by a company called click funnels the idea is to look at how somebody’s marketing their product and model their customer acquisition and then customer extension phases by you know mimicking their marketing well they’re not advocating copying an ad or copying ad copy and images in fact they think you’re not – you know but but there’s enough publicly available information there that you can divine these outline what one of my interest is stories and Aristotle had this concept

of reverse engineering the story to figure out what the theme of what the outline is to the story and you can figure out reverse engineer what the theme of your competition is by looking at their products without stealing their creative intellectual property that’s within it and in fact if you do that and do that well you can probably create a better product yeah I mean that’s the main focus on I always tell people is whatever you’re doing be customer focused right most businesses are they look at themselves they don’t focus on

the consumer so whenever you do what you just said you’re borrowing their idea you know tailor it to a specific customer and chances are you’ll have a better product mm-hmm was that it are we good that’s it didso and I’m gonna put I know he had a link I got one that’s a little shorter here I’m gonna put in here you had your this is the link where you can get the NBA in actually once you clarify what you’re in because it’s a it’s a process right it’s a basic generic it’d be a whoever downloads this

form and I’ll customize it for my clients but you got to fill in your name because you’re the person providing the information you have to identify who the recipient is you have to describe the thing that you’re trying to protect you know a open generic Blake NDA is unenforceable in most days so if you just have somebody that says I agree not to discuss whatever it is we discussed today the next question you get from the judge would be what what did you discuss the way of what did you discuss did you

agree keep secret and of course the people always say it’s about that much stuff and you’re like but wait a minute it’s the whole thing avoid that the way to avoid that is by describing the stuff that you want secret correctly within the NDA I advocate right I would say honestly that that that was worth my time today just hearing that yeah I can’t tell you how many MBAs I’ve done where I don’t specify it’s just a blanket NDA I’m that that’s brilliant thank you know that those those are very

difficult to enforce the the other piece of this is that I encourage your listeners and the people on the call to automate this and the way to automate it that I use is through an account called ever sign I take this document I make it blanks I upload it as a template I think you have to pay a little bit more as a template you can customize it and then upload it as a document for free and then use their program that it handles sending it out you get to customize the email they receive it handles three reminder emails and then it stores it

for you along with tracking of when they opened it if they didn’t sign it when they opened it you know they take a quick peek and then when they actually execute the document so if you see somebody open it without signing it you can send them an email and the phone call hey notice you took a look at this or just wanted to have any questions about it it makes the whole NDA process much more efficient and and enforceable when you get to the point of needing to show a judge you’ve been doing something called

due diligence to protect your secrets yeah I actually I’ve helped mutual friends that you know automate this process of sending it out to a lot of people and it is a really good system I mean it does it makes things so much easier dealing with a lot of people so anyway anybody have any other additional questions got lots of time accused for your time yeah again it was kind of what the joe winrar got to as well because what I wanted to know you kind of answered at that point but it was in in a general ballpark it’s a thing with how much what

would any one of these types of protections cost to file mm-hmm well we because yeah I can probably estimate what I will make in a year with whichever of my products I’m going for but I would like to have some kind of idea of what it would actually cost for me to protect it so the short answer and then I’m going to send you to a resource is that getting an electoral property is not like climbing a ladder I it’s impossible to tell you this is the next rung and this is how much it’s gonna cost to

climb it it’s more like trying to climb a tree when you’re a kid you didn’t really know which branch it ended up on and there’s a different fee for each branch you step on so so it’s hard to predict so what I would encourage you to do is to go to the pressure associates YouTube channel where I actually walk through the cost and different scenarios for the cost and three different presentations each of those presentations is about twenty minutes and it comes with a PDF that you can download the end of the presentation to

try to estimate what your costs would be okay okay I’m putting that link in the chat write that right now just give me a second I don’t know where my chat with yeah yeah that sounds really useful because that that would be one of the things right because yeah if I have something and it sells a few copies here there may be just a few and a month and stuff like that or I have one of the others that’s quite a lot more expensive which which I might have a few sales of the often mm-hmm that that might be much

more interested and and again I have something else that’s that’s really taking off and I might like to do something with that before it gets to a point where I can really do some and in these situations and this is why I’m giving the NDA out out right now the NDA is free use it use it that’s gonna save you money and it’s fast but you got a document everybody that has it and why they have a duty to keep it a secret it’s my mom is perplexed it’s my director/producer duty it’s my customer they signed this in ba

or they signed another agreement with an NDA provision in it so keep track of your trade secrets that’s that’s the inexpensive way to get started yeah the part with the trade secrets is is probably currently where I’m at because I kept it pretty secret but yeah it’s just with publications and stuff like that at some point now that this stuff is easy I have my own software company I’m trying to create a product for it got off the ground right now to it and you know what I work with developers and

I’m constantly having to harass them to send me signed agreements even though I’m the freaking you know lawyer and I’m the one writing them a check I know how hard this is you just sometimes you just gotta go hey sign it you want the check check signature and Jackie maybe that was what you’re alluding to but I know from talking to you youyou yeah I know at some point maybe you’re gonna hire out on doing some stuff some actual work and I think that was also part of like what do you need to

get them to sign rightbesides the NBA it we don’t actually I spent most of my life working in corporate America and Ian I work for a department offense the DoD stuff where you talk about top-secret stuff yeah we had a lot of stuff on that but even then the corporal I didn’t realize so much of the whole I forget it I think I knew the time but the whole read folder is the point to make it so obvious right but but it was more about the mindset of what you’re doing with it then it actually was of the that the logo on the

you know each page yeah and in fact McDonnell Douglas we had information rooms manned by an information officer who would limit your access to the room where you had to look and remember what it was you read and then walk out so you don’t have to go that far with trade secrets fortunately but you understand that that’s kind of where this concept of something being secret comes from you know so I did some work for I think it was Toyota Financial and they they made it where I had to have a safe to literally lock up the data and and I

thought how silly like someone but now I get it right that was that was what they were doing yes you know and by the way Joe I want to bring up another point and we didn’t get to this today because this is all about the intellectual property we’ve kind of my traded into a discussion of customer agreements and stuff if you have a contractor who’s writing code for you the presumption under the law is that they own their creation unless provision in an agreement that assigns it to you Wow if that person’s an employee the

employer is presumed to own it but if you’re contracting out stuff you need two important provisions one is the non-disclosure and an on use provision a third is assignment their creations to you or the entity that you’re managing to to do the work Wow is everyone writing this down that was huge yeah that’s a whoo but this is this is why it’s great having someone you can get some quick ideas from because like that probably just saved half of us like some really bad things happening at some point this is the

program for developers the program for a business owners leads that you know do you actually own the stuff you paid for is the question I frequently open that presentation with yeah I never would have guessed that oh you you you would love the look on faces in the body or look yeah yeah thank you a story there was a this is when I worked at a really big law firm downtown Dallas we had somebody come through our door who had received a a we called the document where someone’s basically agreeing to the preliminary steps to buy your

company a pending you diligence you know who is an intent to purchase and the purchase price was for over 20 million dollars and this software company came in to us and they said well let’s you know but nothing and get our IP in order again after the fact turned out they only used contractors a bunch of them were international students who had gone home they had not follow her patents the period to file for patents had expired and not filed for trademarks or copyrights they didn’t have maybe AIDS they had nothing and we had to

reconstruct everything the final purchase price for that company the purchase did get it through was for a little bit more than 10% of the original commitment price they lost 17 million some odd dollars worth the value I hate because they have this thing buttoned up this is like 20 a little bit and right about 20 years ago when a million dollars was a lot of money yeah you know the tech bubble but man to just see you know all right and to hear the the you know the absolute anguish found on the other end of the phone wasone of

those lessons you just don’t forget you know maybe maybe maybe next year you can come backwhat you know it would be a painful one but I think it’d be a great one to learn by our you know present the top 15 mistakes right of like the things that that in and with especially with an example on each one maybe butmost people learn more by mr.

right something you pay attention when you you hear how you have something like this happens yeah that’s ouch awesome a win thank you so I know everyone on here and like I said we get a lot of people watch this after so I realized also there’s another actually I realized Jackie I was laughing because I couldn’t get it done in time but Auto it is another scripting language actually AutoHotkey’s forked from it and I’m like you know I should have reached out to their community and said hey we’re doing a webinar which is

you know right up your guys’s alley so I’m gonna make sure I share it to them as well butgreat stuff Thank You Steven excellent thank you Jeff okay again ever so I can say because I went through it and actually I even told Steve it was one of the reasons why I should I called you to to say you know I I initially went to his website and signed up in in in and went through his onboarding process and he doesn’t share your email with anybody else right obviously look at what he works in right so that’s not a concern

but it was it’s a really great onboarding process in the documents that he sends you I think it’s every it’s not is it every day once a day somewhere in there what’s over three days on which website you come in and on if you come in through Thrasher Associates which currently Ford’s to thrash law calm you ass which document you want and then you get an onboarding sequence that lasts three days and then a sequence of education that can last five days which is about every other day of an email

sent to seven then if you come through a topical specific page like thresher trademark law and soon to be published like your patent law pet rights for copyright law there are different email sequences that you’ll get triggered into the trademark ones mirror those there is a sequence in the trademarks that will send you a video with a quick write-up about five days a week frankly until you cancel practically its 60-day sequence but I really want people that hire me to do their trademark work or their patent work for their copyright

work to really understand what the process it is and what they’re doing and I found that if they go through that sequence about ninety eight point nine percent of their questions will be answered cool yeah awesome well that we we ended up just talking straight through I didn’t even realize like we had blown past the first hour until I looked up and it was a bit after butthank you so much for being on here today yeah thank you everyone else we’ll hopefully see you next month and that’s it awesome yeah thanks again Steven hey


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